Comments on: Cut ‘use it or lose it’ to 35 years: artists http://a2f2a.com/2009/11/04/cut-%e2%80%98use-it-or-lose-it%e2%80%99-clause-to-35-years-artists/ The net's first, and only, artists-to-fans-to-artists blog! Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:26:06 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Monkey D. Luffy http://a2f2a.com/2009/11/04/cut-%e2%80%98use-it-or-lose-it%e2%80%99-clause-to-35-years-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-687 Monkey D. Luffy Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:24:58 +0000 http://a2f2a.com/?p=662#comment-687 I suppose you have to press them for what you can get, but personally I think it should be five years use it or lose it. Think about it, some band gets a bad record deal, and their songs don't get any promo or release for years. Let's say they are 20 years old, at 35 years they don't get the rights back till they are 55! At that point if they haven't all given up music for day jobs they get to go on a geezer revival tour. At 5 years, the members are only 25, probably still playing and can make good use of their music. Considering just how easy it is to release something digitally there is no excuse for a rights holder to hold on to someones music and not release it. I suppose you have to press them for what you can get, but personally I think it should be five years use it or lose it. Think about it, some band gets a bad record deal, and their songs don’t get any promo or release for years. Let’s say they are 20 years old, at 35 years they don’t get the rights back till they are 55! At that point if they haven’t all given up music for day jobs they get to go on a geezer revival tour. At 5 years, the members are only 25, probably still playing and can make good use of their music. Considering just how easy it is to release something digitally there is no excuse for a rights holder to hold on to someones music and not release it.

]]> By: Billy Bragg http://a2f2a.com/2009/11/04/cut-%e2%80%98use-it-or-lose-it%e2%80%99-clause-to-35-years-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-606 Billy Bragg Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:13:00 +0000 http://a2f2a.com/?p=662#comment-606 DA, I will be pressing the FAC to clearly state that we do not believe that there can be any technical solution to the problems we face because of file-sharing. Our campaign 'where money is made, artists must be paid' implicitly supports the right of file-sharers not to be prosecuted. The industry will not buy our support for three strikes in exchange for 35 years use it or lose it. How have you got hold of the idea that the window is closing? They haven't even had the second reading of the bill yet. DA,

I will be pressing the FAC to clearly state that we do not believe that there can be any technical solution to the problems we face because of file-sharing. Our campaign ‘where money is made, artists must be paid’ implicitly supports the right of file-sharers not to be prosecuted. The industry will not buy our support for three strikes in exchange for 35 years use it or lose it.

How have you got hold of the idea that the window is closing? They haven’t even had the second reading of the bill yet.

]]> By: DevilsAdvocate http://a2f2a.com/2009/11/04/cut-%e2%80%98use-it-or-lose-it%e2%80%99-clause-to-35-years-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-600 DevilsAdvocate Fri, 06 Nov 2009 03:27:54 +0000 http://a2f2a.com/?p=662#comment-600 "There will be no trade off on these two issues." I just need the clarity on this one. Does this mean the FAC is willing to reverse their position on provider interference? Or are you simply going in to talk about the copyright issue, and avoid both touching on the 3-strikes topic and discussing amongst its members any possibility of rescinding the FAC's previous support? "...why don’t you delegate someone to come and sit at the table..." Believe me! If money was something I didn't have to kill for right now, I'd be insisting on being one of the people on that plane!! One thing you have to remember, Billy, is that many in the fan base you'd like to see represented are not in England and aren't in the financial position to just buy a plane ticket. And, there's lots of others who'd like to see more of these types of discussions before "coming out" in front of any government as a "file sharer". You belong to a actual organized coalition, with money between you and resources at your feet. In contrast, "we" are just individuals, mostly "working slobs", without protection, and the ones most persecuted by the very process you're engaging. It's only been a few weeks since this site went up and we all started talking and we're being told the window's already closing on the first opportunity to be heard. Sure! Everyone would like to see things change TOMORROW. But, afford us the same understanding of our position as we have openly extended to you. You got impatient because you couldn't get quick answers to some very broad questions, yet you seem to be avoiding the direct answer to a much simpler question (above), about a very central matter in this relationship. We absolutely MUST know if the relationship has progressed on that front, or there's not much point in going in expecting to have a voice. We BOTH have grounds we're trying to regain, not just in the artist-fan issue, but in our own worlds as well. And, currently, you're still basically the only "artist voice" engaging us about this. Collectively, the P2P community is considerably more vulnerable than any artist, and there's a lot more at stake on that front besides "music". “There will be no trade off on these two issues.”

I just need the clarity on this one.
Does this mean the FAC is willing to reverse their position on provider interference? Or are you simply going in to talk about the copyright issue, and avoid both touching on the 3-strikes topic and discussing amongst its members any possibility of rescinding the FAC’s previous support?

“…why don’t you delegate someone to come and sit at the table…”

Believe me! If money was something I didn’t have to kill for right now, I’d be insisting on being one of the people on that plane!!

One thing you have to remember, Billy, is that many in the fan base you’d like to see represented are not in England and aren’t in the financial position to just buy a plane ticket. And, there’s lots of others who’d like to see more of these types of discussions before “coming out” in front of any government as a “file sharer”.

You belong to a actual organized coalition, with money between you and resources at your feet. In contrast, “we” are just individuals, mostly “working slobs”, without protection, and the ones most persecuted by the very process you’re engaging.

It’s only been a few weeks since this site went up and we all started talking and we’re being told the window’s already closing on the first opportunity to be heard. Sure! Everyone would like to see things change TOMORROW. But, afford us the same understanding of our position as we have openly extended to you.

You got impatient because you couldn’t get quick answers to some very broad questions, yet you seem to be avoiding the direct answer to a much simpler question (above), about a very central matter in this relationship. We absolutely MUST know if the relationship has progressed on that front, or there’s not much point in going in expecting to have a voice. We BOTH have grounds we’re trying to regain, not just in the artist-fan issue, but in our own worlds as well. And, currently, you’re still basically the only “artist voice” engaging us about this.

Collectively, the P2P community is considerably more vulnerable than any artist, and there’s a lot more at stake on that front besides “music”.

]]> By: Dreddsnik http://a2f2a.com/2009/11/04/cut-%e2%80%98use-it-or-lose-it%e2%80%99-clause-to-35-years-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-598 Dreddsnik Fri, 06 Nov 2009 02:43:40 +0000 http://a2f2a.com/?p=662#comment-598 " There will be no trade off on these two issues. " I'm happier now. " Instead of worrying about these possibilties, why don’t you delegate someone to come and sit at the table and take part in these negotiations? That is the way to make sure that the people who are the focus of these laws do get a voice, do get representation. " Working on it ( looks toward Jon ) ;) ” There will be no trade off on these two issues. ”

I’m happier now.

” Instead of worrying about these possibilties, why don’t you delegate someone to come and sit at the table and take part in these negotiations? That is the way to make sure that the people who are the focus of these laws do get a voice, do get representation. ”

Working on it ( looks toward Jon ) ;)

]]> By: Billy Bragg http://a2f2a.com/2009/11/04/cut-%e2%80%98use-it-or-lose-it%e2%80%99-clause-to-35-years-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-594 Billy Bragg Fri, 06 Nov 2009 00:36:54 +0000 http://a2f2a.com/?p=662#comment-594 Dredd, DA, There will be no trade off on these two issues. Instead of worrying about these possibilties, why don't you delegate someone to come and sit at the table and take part in these negotiations? That is the way to make sure that the people who are the focus of these laws do get a voice, do get representation. Dredd, DA,

There will be no trade off on these two issues.

Instead of worrying about these possibilties, why don’t you delegate someone to come and sit at the table and take part in these negotiations? That is the way to make sure that the people who are the focus of these laws do get a voice, do get representation.

]]> By: Dreddsnik http://a2f2a.com/2009/11/04/cut-%e2%80%98use-it-or-lose-it%e2%80%99-clause-to-35-years-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-590 Dreddsnik Thu, 05 Nov 2009 23:48:01 +0000 http://a2f2a.com/?p=662#comment-590 "Dredd’s got a very valid concern." Thank you. The worst part of that, if true, is that the people whose rights will get trampled have NO VOICE and NO REPRESENTATION in these proceedings, sort of like a mini ACTA conference. As I said, If I have the wrong impression, please correct me, as this is the entire root of my frustrations here. “Dredd’s got a very valid concern.”

Thank you. The worst part of that, if true, is that the people whose rights will get trampled have NO VOICE and NO REPRESENTATION in these proceedings, sort of like a mini ACTA conference. As I said, If I have the wrong impression, please correct me, as this is the entire root of my frustrations here.

]]> By: DevilsAdvocate http://a2f2a.com/2009/11/04/cut-%e2%80%98use-it-or-lose-it%e2%80%99-clause-to-35-years-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-588 DevilsAdvocate Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:04:25 +0000 http://a2f2a.com/?p=662#comment-588 ^^ Sounds like a reasonable interrogation to me. We have already voiced our supreme opposition to BOTH draconian copyright conditions and provider interference proposals. It wouldn't be sane to propose some peculiar "trade off", where getting rid of one requires acceptance of the other. (That would be like your upstairs neighbour offering you the "deal" that if he can continue to play his music at 3:00am, he'll stop letting his dog shit on your doormat.) Dredd's got a very valid concern. ^^
Sounds like a reasonable interrogation to me.

We have already voiced our supreme opposition to BOTH draconian copyright conditions and provider interference proposals. It wouldn’t be sane to propose some peculiar “trade off”, where getting rid of one requires acceptance of the other. (That would be like your upstairs neighbour offering you the “deal” that if he can continue to play his music at 3:00am, he’ll stop letting his dog shit on your doormat.)

Dredd’s got a very valid concern.

]]> By: Dreddsnik http://a2f2a.com/2009/11/04/cut-%e2%80%98use-it-or-lose-it%e2%80%99-clause-to-35-years-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-581 Dreddsnik Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:39:45 +0000 http://a2f2a.com/?p=662#comment-581 " Lets quit listing all the things we don’t agree on and try to find the things that we do agree on. " I would love to do that.It's just that I see a problem, and I hope I am wrong, and I welcome being corrected if I AM wrong. I am getting the impression from previous threads that in order for you to GET that 35 years you want ( and I support ) you have to GIVE your support for throttling or 3 strikes. Trade fans fir favors. If that is NOT the case, then correct me. ” Lets quit listing all the things we don’t agree on and try to find the things that we do agree on. ”

I would love to do that.It’s just that I see a problem, and I hope I am wrong, and I welcome being corrected if I AM wrong.
I am getting the impression from previous threads that in order for you to GET that 35 years you want ( and I support ) you have to GIVE your support for throttling or 3 strikes. Trade fans fir favors. If that is NOT the case, then correct me.

]]> By: Billy Bragg http://a2f2a.com/2009/11/04/cut-%e2%80%98use-it-or-lose-it%e2%80%99-clause-to-35-years-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-579 Billy Bragg Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:44:23 +0000 http://a2f2a.com/?p=662#comment-579 Dredds, No one is asking you to support three strikes. Lets quit listing all the things we don't agree on and try to find the things that we do agree on. Your support for the 35 year option is very welcome, particularly because you recognise that, although it is a bloody long time, it's a start. That's what we're trying to do here. Make a start on breaking down the current copyright regime. Dredds,

No one is asking you to support three strikes.

Lets quit listing all the things we don’t agree on and try to find the things that we do agree on.

Your support for the 35 year option is very welcome, particularly because you recognise that, although it is a bloody long time, it’s a start. That’s what we’re trying to do here. Make a start on breaking down the current copyright regime.

]]> By: Dreddsnik http://a2f2a.com/2009/11/04/cut-%e2%80%98use-it-or-lose-it%e2%80%99-clause-to-35-years-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-556 Dreddsnik Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:41:00 +0000 http://a2f2a.com/?p=662#comment-556 " However, FAC members, including a2f2a.com co-founder Billy Bragg, today met with senior civil servants at the Intellectual Property Office in London in a bid to get the cause whittled down to 35 years " I can support that, it's a start. It has to start small. But I WON'T support it if in order to get it, they have to sacrifice the fans by backing a 3 strikes type bill. That's 'one step forward two steps back'. ” However, FAC members, including a2f2a.com co-founder Billy Bragg, today met with senior civil servants at the Intellectual Property Office in London in a bid to get the cause whittled down to 35 years ”

I can support that, it’s a start. It has to start small. But I WON’T support it if in order to get it, they have to sacrifice the fans by backing a 3 strikes type bill. That’s ‘one step forward two steps back’.

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